Dr. Kiran Garimella  00:00

Hi Lee, good to see you all. Hi, and thanks for joining in this special secondary markets ATS session. You know, you guys are such seasoned speakers and you know, you have a lot of insights into this markets really looking forward to hearing that. So by way of introductions, I am Kiran Garimella. And I’m the Chief Scientist and CTO for KoreConX. And I will let you Lee and Pat Introduce yourself.

Lee Saba  00:25

Sure, yeah. Hey, thanks. Kiran. Lee Saba, the head of market structure for Rialto Markets.

Pat LaVecchia  00:32

Hi, Pat LaVecchia, I’m the CEO of Oasis pro markets.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  00:37

Awesome, good. Good to have you both. Good to have you both. So, you know, there’s a lot of buzz around the whole secondary markets. And that’s been, you know, one of the value propositions of getting into digital securities and so on. But the notion of secondary markets can mean a lot of things. Right. So and where are the real advantages? And people say liquidity, but then they’ll say, Well, where is the liquidity and so on? So what are some of your insights and thoughts on that one? And I know, Pat, if you want to go first, and when people talk about digital securities, and all the doing away with paper admin, who is working with paper nowadays, right? So

Pat LaVecchia  01:18

Yeah, absolutely. I think that I mean, it’s great question there. We’re at the forefront right now of this tech, tech, technological evolution with the blockchain. And where it’s moving for digital securities, the the benefits are just obvious across the board. And obviously, KoreConX and, and Rialto and Oasis probe markets are trying to, to address all that. But it allows for just simply faster settlement times, very low counterparty risk, potentially less documentation, so less paperwork, a good control location. And, and eventually we get to the utilize the blockchain as a good control location, then immutable control location. So I The benefits are amazing, I remember when I started on the street, I’m a little older than I look, or a little younger than, or younger than I look. It’s one or the other. But I remember guys running around with bags, big pouches of leather bags with stock certificates in them. And these runners were all over Wall Street is especially downtown. And, you know, my background is large banks, Credit Suisse and JP Morgan Bear Stearns, and that was just, you know, normal. And now it’s moved into the electronic age. And, you know, as Lee will probably share as well, there are still components of the capital market system, that in order to do a trade, you know, be not necessarily equities. But as you moved into more esoteric products, where in order to do a transaction, or see where the market fit is, you have to pick up the phone, or send an email, which is just ridiculous. So the market is growing. We’re at a natient stage right now. And, but it’s going to be very exciting. And I think in 10 plus years, to the comment about is there paper? You know, do you use paper? The answer is going to be no, and everything will be electronic, easily, easily accessible, transparent.

Lee Saba  03:36

You Yeah, I agree with that. Pat, it’s, um, it, you know, I love the comment. Because, you know, I’m a little bit was it younger than I am or whatever was it? What would you say? A little bit older? But, um, yeah, I do remember those days. And, you know, I, you probably know, where I’m gonna go with this to Kiran is, you know, the, the aspect of fluidity versus liquidity. And, you know, it’s a term we’ve been thrown around quite a bit because, you know, private markets and digital securities are a little bit different, right, you know, you’re, we’re not talking about trading on Amazon or Apple or those types of stocks. So, you know, each, you know, each person each entity’s cap table may be a little bit different, but what we are what we what we have broken through on is this fluidity concept where we can go end to end now seamlessly, no paper, in a compliant you know, regulated way working with transfer agents working with, you know, the alternative trading systems that Pat and I both work for, and, you know, that’s really going to make the world go round. I mean, we’ve spent a lot of time engaged with, with with the Kiran and KCX you know, to provide that fluidity for you know, each individual issuers profiles So we can accommodate all of that across deck, which I think is it is it is revolutionary. And I think we’re getting there very quickly. And, you know, who needs that paper? Let’s Let’s lean on those blockchains.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  05:13

You know, it’s fascinating because, you know, people who invest in the private security markets, they they typically come from a certain background, they don’t necessarily, at least in the past, right, I mean, that all the, the accredited investors return and they they make it into private markets, and they know that they have to hold for a long time, there’s no liquidity in things like that one. I mean, isn’t the expectation with the retail investors more about, you know, hey, I can trade my IBM stock or Microsoft stock in a heartbeat, right, a two second five? Second confirmation? Is, is there an expectation from your experience with these types of, you know, what we call the really democratized retail traders and investors today about that type of expectation that there’s going to be a volume and liquidity? And, you know, how far away is that? Is that real? And you know, what is real? You know, they need thoughts around that that expectation from you.

Lee Saba  06:14

I could start out with a statistic, right? I mean, you’re looking at, you know, in the United States alone, there’s 23 million private companies, right. And all of them would be, you know, eligible at some point, probably for reggae, or reg CF, or D component. You know, when you look at the public markets, you know, the last I checked, there was under 6000, listed companies, between NASDAQ and New York, and even on NASDAQ. In New York, there are companies that don’t trade. So everybody has this opinion that, you know, not not, everything’s Apple, not everything’s Microsoft, and, you know, the big names. So, you know, in the private markets, it does shift a little bit in, and, you know, I’d love to, you know, hear Pat’s theories on this too, but it’s, um, or experiences, every company a little different, if you have 100 shareholders on your cap table, right there, there may not be as much liquidity, if you have 100,000 shareholders on your cap table, now you have a different liquidity profile, where you know, there’s probably going to be more going on in and out of there. And there’s multiple ways to accommodate this, you know, you can have a, you know, a real time order book, or you can have, you know, a point in time cross, right, where you aggregate some of that flow and let some of your shareholders know that, you know, at this moment in time, if you want to exercise, if you want to buy more or sell your current position, you now have, you know, an opportunity to do that between, you know, two and three on the second Friday of March, you know. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a slightly different story than I think, what what most folks are used to, but again, I think I just want to emphasize, it’s, it’s different per issuer.

Pat LaVecchia  08:00

Yeah, I completely agree with Lee, you know, in regards to your example, there on the liquidity front, these markets prior to these markets, so along the lines of what reality in a way says pro markets have done, there is no liquidity, right, for the most part, away from some, you know, some of the services like Sam bado, and some others who are primarily dealing with Silicon Valley, unicorns, etc, for employees to be able to, to liquidate a portion of their holdings. But but away from that, again, it’s it’s like baby steps. Five years ago, I don’t think anyone, anyone would have imagined that there’s, there would be an opportunity for REG CF reg D Reg, a plus to move into this arena utilizing the blockchain and speed. Yeah, and there are a variety of different ways to do it. We’re, we have an active order book. So it’s real time all the time. We haven’t launched yet. Granted, we’ll be launching in q1. But at you know, at the end of the day, I think, again in three to five years. And it depends on your timeframe. Is that short term? Is that long term? That is you it’s a bit of a chicken and egg, right. So most of these private companies out there don’t have many shareholders. One of the reasons they don’t have a lot of shareholders is there’s a lack of liquidity. So if they invest, they have to, you know, determine they don’t need access to that, to that investment amount for a period of time. I’d say the average hold time is anywhere between three and five years, unless you’re one of these VC firms, and there’s a frothy IPO market. So if there’s an opportunity and these are the discussions we’re having with with a number of potential issuers is they’re looking at the the approach and utilizing the blockchain and potentially the benefits of defi at some point in the future as well, that part of their marketing is to add this liquidity feature. And it so that if someone is on the fence in regards to making an investment because of that lockup, they have an opportunity, if they so choose, it depends on volume, it depends, you know, so that there will be, there’ll be volatility in the price that it could be, it could have them take that step to make the investment, we’re heading there. But as you can tell this chicken and egg once, once this starts rolling, the number of shareholders grows, it gets to a critical mass to Lee’s point, and then that volume and liquidity will follow.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  10:44

You know, I read recently that the chicken and egg problem was actually solved. I think it’s a chicken that came first or something like that. But you know, so speaking of that, I think the chicken egg problem is somewhat already solved in the sense that over the last couple of years, and you may have, I’m sure you have better data than me, because you’re experts in this area. But I think the tide has shifted over the last few years where there’s more money raised in the private world, rather than the on the public world. In fact, there’s a impetus to go towards privatization and away from the public markets to I was reading about a few months ago, one of the research papers that David Weild, the fourth, who’s the XYZ chairman of NASDAQ, and the father of jobs act, he authored, and he was pointing out pretty much the same type of phenomenon where people felt it’s better to go, you know, private, and, you know, you’re not seeing a lot more money been raised in the private sector. So I think the mass exists, I mean, the chicken is ready to lay the egg. Right. What do you think?

Pat LaVecchia  11:55

I think? Well, I think the size of that market, that’s a different market, right, in regards to what we’re talking about, which is retail accredited investors, primarily, that’s more large institutions, but it is happening, there is a movement, absolutely. But the deal sizes, you know, for reggae, plus reg D, and certainly reg CF are a lot smaller, right. But But again, it’s all a very positive trend. And, and, and eventually, look at crypto, right crypto five years ago was retail, and I don’t think anyone would have imagined for the most part, anyone would have imagined that it’s become what it is today. And with a number of institutions, etc. That’s how I view this whole digital security market. You know, the issuers that come in early will have the opportunity to benefit to learn, as this market grows, do enough. Several issuers are what you may call a serial issuer, and have the opportunity to take advantage of this market as it grows. But my you know, when I said chicken and egg, I don’t view it as a problem. This is this is really for each issuer in and of themselves. Right? So, you know, in order to get volume and liquidity, you need to expand your shareholder base. To Lee’s point 100 shareholders, you’re not going to see a lot of liquidity. And as you build that, then volume and liquidity will follow.

Lee Saba  13:23

Yeah, it’s like to add a little bit, you know, I think, um, you know, there, there is a lot going on in this space, and it is evolving quite rapidly. But I think the fact that, that we are providing, you know, the on ramp was fantastic with with reggae, and REG CF and allowing, you know, retail investors to actually gain access to these exciting, you know, new companies and investments, not necessarily even new companies, they were just private for a long time. But, you know, before 2012, it was illegal to own these securities as a retail investor or non accredited investor. I mean, it’s hard to believe, but it was illegal, like, you could not do it. But so now that we actually have the on ramp, which is fantastic, right, there was no off ramp. So, you know, you know, Pat, that these companies are both now, you know, facilitating this kind of yin and yang process, you know, where the final leg to, to really to realize the potential of, you know, these private securities, and, you know, I think they’re just, you know, beginning to blossom, you know, whether you take you know, I don’t I don’t know, I don’t know if I won’t open up this can of worms around the NFT market or, you know, other things that are look like securities to me, and they are blockchain native, you know, that this is just a whole ecosystem that that’s that’s colliding right now. And, you know, even the institutional players and we have a lot of conversations with them are starting to take notice. There’s something happening there that they’re, you know, I think, pat you are alluding to this is that, you know, it’s a little bit too small for them, you know, some some of these, you know, issuers, you know, might be just not big enough yet for to capture their eye, but they’re starting to come around, they’re looking at this market for, you know, you know, increased returns on their own assets, you know, because that now they’re managing money and they’re seeking returns, and they’re not finding them in these public markets right now. So they’re leaning, they’re looking elsewhere. And, again, there’s 23 million private companies in the US alone, and of those 23 million, there’s a lot that are amazing. And they don’t even want to go public, or even have a need to go public. But if you want to access them, and add them to your portfolio, here’s how you do it. And again, we provide, you know, the on ramps and the off ramps, you know, using leveraging all of our organizations here, so fascinating and exciting.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  15:52

You have to open up, you had to point to the Pandora’s box. So I can’t resist but open the logistics of it just to take a little bit of a peek. Right? You know, you’re talking about all the NFT’s and stuff happening. But, you know, it seems to me that there’s this Cambrian explosion, really Cambrian explosion of all kinds of very innovative products and solutions that the market is coming up with, powered by all this digital securities in the blockchain. So your NFT’s, you’ve got stable coins, you’ve got other types of innovations happening all the time, and who knows what else right. And since both of you admitted to looking a lot younger than you actually are, so I’ll ask you, have you ever seen this in other markets in other private seconds? The public side? We have right.

Pat LaVecchia  16:39

Ah, go ahead, Lee.

Lee Saba  16:41

You know, I’ve never seen anything quite like this. I mean, I, you know, obviously, we’ve all experienced, you know, I wasn’t quite born when the internet came around. You know, that was a thing. But, but people tell me, it was interesting, but no, I mean, you know, it’s a little bit like the internet. But, you know, I started in electronic trading before electronic trading started. And the buzz around this is it echoes a lot of that a lot of people are very excited. There’s a lot of very smart, innovative people that are that are joining this, this revolution, but this is that times 10. To me, it’s it’s even bigger and more complicated in what we did back then whether it was electronic trading using, you know, connectivity in, you know, fix standards, and really engaging electronic markets. That feels quaint right now, compared to these markets.

Pat LaVecchia  17:39

Yeah, no, absolutely, I was gonna use the same analogy, you know, the internet, you know, when it first came along, and then, you know, the progression over a short period of time, but this is multiples of that. Now, I’ve never seen anything like that I you know, the MFTs are relatively a new phenomenon. I believe it’s like about a year now. I think it all started last October, as I recall. And now we’re discussing NFT’s fractional NFTs, are they securities? And again, I have my own views on this, some of the least, we probably share a lot of the same views. But yeah, they’re, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s unique, because there’s a new product, or there is a lot of noise. There’s a question about stable coins, you brought up stable coins? So yeah, the President’s working group came out with the paper a couple of weeks ago with, you know, if you regarding regulating stable coins, and that’s, that’s, that’s a whole other discussion as to why they’re approaching that. But, you know, you know, with stable coins, and this can happen from a funding perspective as well, right? You accept in our platform, we can accept stable coin, right. So I, you know, I’m an investor as well, I’m not only a platform, but I invest in private companies. I’ve been doing that for since I was five years old, 30 years ago. So but I’ve been doing it for a long time, and everything had to do with the wire. Now, then it became an ACH. Well, recently, I invested in the company in Amsterdam, and I use stable coin and I had an account with you know, one of the, the, the token platforms here, and I sent dye, which is a stable coin over to this company, you know, you know, a good amount and they received it within three minutes. Now, when you when you’re sending money overseas, that could take five days are longer. So in that analogy goes back to the markets that we’re talking about, right, more settlement times from days to a day or less than a day and eventually, almost instantaneous. So, there’s a lot of there’s, there’s just so much happening, it’s really exciting. And Rialto, KoreConX, and Oasis pro markets were all positioned for the benefit of this, you know, as it grows, as new opportunities, new products come out, you know, I predict in seven years, you know, one of the largest market caps in the, in this space, probably hasn’t even been founded yet. Because if you go back five, six years ago, who was FTX? Who were a lot of these companies, we didn’t know any of these companies. Right? So I think they’re, it’s, you know, it’s just a very exciting time. But for the individual investor, the retail investor, it just means more opportunity, more transparency, which is very important. Liquidity, and, you know, those are all exciting, exciting things as, as this technology really enables all the markets, not just the public markets for for investors to benefit from,

Dr. Kiran Garimella  21:11

You know, let me let me double click on something that both of you mentioned, I can’t resist that. You both use the word, you know, internet, right. And in the first few years of the frenzy of internet, there were all these really wacky business models that came up and, you know, people, you know, I was in the middle of that myself, and I would go, who on earth would even revoke something like this crazy, right. But I think there was one key thing that many people didn’t realize that we now know, the basic infrastructure of the internet existed. It was sound it was there. Right? I think we’re at the right at the same nexus point. Now, when many people are debating the viability of stable coins or NF T’s or is this good? Or is it bad? But I don’t, I don’t think people have realized that the underlying infrastructure and the technology to make secondary markets happen is here. It’s alive. It’s well, have done examples. And leaders, we have done some examples. So it’s there right now. So it’s not a lack of the infrastructure. Right? How do you guys feel about that?

Pat LaVecchia  22:23

I’ll jump in on that. Yeah, I look, I agree with you. Really, you know, and I don’t want to call it a bot. There are bottlenecks in our system. And these bottlenecks need to be fixed and who created the bottlenecks? It’s not the technology, the technology has been around for several years. To the point where? Yeah, I’ll give you guys an example. I it said technology’s there. But you have regulators, right? We’re what I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet where we’re not only compliance forwards it, but we’re regulatory forward, right. So we’re working with overseers to protect the investors at the end of the day. And that’s their role. And they are taking a very cautious approach here, which has created bottlenecks. So in a way, that’s that’s that slowed down the progress, but even with that being said, the market is still growing. Going forward, but I agree with you. Right, the the infrastructure is in place. But when I was I had a question from one of the regulators that maybe Lee got this same question. And maybe you did as well Kiran and which was how do you know the blockchain is safe? Because the miners control the blockchain which was very difficult to to respond to. But at the end of the day, the miners, there is no coalition of miners, right. So you’re dealing with it’s all peer to peer on a global basis. Eventually the regulator’s will get there when you get there, these bottlenecks, hopefully will be removed. And and then you can really see this market explode.

Lee Saba  24:08

Yeah, I would add to that, you know, it makes a lot of sense. What you’re what you’re alluding to here, Kiran , and I agree wholeheartedly, Pat, you know, it, there’s, but I think in the internet a little bit, I’m gonna go back, you know, a little bit when you when it first showed up, right? I mean, yeah, the plumbing was there. It wasn’t robust, but it was accessible, and you had the dial up. So not everybody understood it. But there was a training like that, that had to occur for all of us to get used to getting on and off, you know, the internet and understanding it. You know, I remember the days where, you know, and I still, you know, I don’t know, most of my friends, my older family members are fast, but, you know, they’re like, I would never do internet banking. You know, why would I give up my information on such things and know who can read it and, and now, I can’t remember the last time I went to a bank So, you know, it’s now just a natural progression. And I think, you know, to use you to lean into Pat’s analysis, where the, you know, the regulator’s are like, you know, talking about the blockchain, and how do we know it’s secure? Well, it’s a comfort level, they’re just not used to the technology and nor is a lot of people like, you know, these are, these are, we’re kind of at the tip of the spear here for innovation. And it’s going to be a little bit before everybody gets more and more comfortable. But I think we’re going to start seeing a lot more chatter about private markets, about digital securities, about, you know, primary offerings about secondary trading, and then you’re gonna even have cottage industries surrounding those. Pretty soon, you know, because, you know, the Wall Street Journal, and all these, you know, financial times are going to start picking this up, because this will be the story, this is where you get your returns, this is where you find interesting companies, this is, you know, it just keeps saying this, and this, you know, for a long time. So, yeah, there’s a lot, there’s a lot colliding here. But I do think that there are a lot of analogies to just getting used to the technology getting a you know, we’ve all everybody on this call is taking the journey of blockchain, which, you know, I was trained last century. You know, unfortunately, you know, I had to break a lot of the my mindset to get into this space. And, and once you get there, you go up. Now, it’s making sense, and a lot of folks still haven’t done it yet, but once they do, it’s gonna be very, I think it’s gonna take off pretty quickly, faster than the last internet ride.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  26:42

Oh, yeah, no, I think so. I mean, it’s, I mean, the regulatory question isn’t going to go away. I mean, that’s something that, you know, they will feel uncomfortable, in fact, not just regulators, even the investors will feel uncomfortable, right, a lot of investors that, you know, I mean, how many of them actually know how to set up a Metamask? Wallet? Right? You know, it you know, that’s, that’s still a very specialized thing to do for most people, you know, that it’s not accessible at all. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you look at it, and this has been one of the themes, not only just for this summit, but you know, when we all have been working together, no talking about this, it has to be a very compliance first safety first type of an approach that we take to architecting these solutions. And I think the more we do that, I think the more the regulator’s will feel comfortable. And in our truth be told, I mean, it’s not just about the public, public blockchains addressing the private markets, but it’s also the permission chains as well. I mean, so those things have to co-exist, isn’t it?

Lee Saba  27:45

I think it’s all about investor protection. You know, really, at the end of the day, we just going to Gary Gensler, your Krishna ganzer you know, I, I admire what he’s doing, and I understand the, the vastness of what he’s trying to take on. Right. And, and I think he’s the perfect person at the perfect time, because he understands it, and he understands both and yes, he is the top cop in the, in the, you know, securities regulating market, but, um, you know, there needs to be investor protections, there needs to be an understanding of what’s going on at, you know, ATS is like a Oasis and Rialto, you know, with the registered transfer agents to make sure that, you know, there is some recourse in case something goes down, what is your process, and it’s defined, you know, when you deal with some of these other entities that will call them they’re not, they’re not regulated, and you don’t know what’s going on in even in regulated markets. And, Pat, I’m sure you can attest to this, the most regulated folks, you know, I’m not gonna name any names that are, you know, large exchanges, have even gotten in hot water for some of their practices. And those are under a microscope. So, to even take it away from the microscope and just live in the wilds, and just trust me, it’ll be fine, is probably not a good growth strategy.

Pat LaVecchia  29:10

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And look at I think our infrastructures in place, you know, and I think, you know, RealFeel, all the other ATS is in core connects at which provides a secure, auditable platform where all compliance regulatory forward, it’s, you know, these other groups and this, again, this is part of what the regulator’s are doing right, is they’re creating bottlenecks for the regulated entities, which is us, and we’re working, we’re working through it right in conjunction with them. And they’re examining these other spaces. So regulatory regulation by enforcement is happening. And the predictions are you’ll see more and more actions taken against companies doing exactly what what Lee just described. Probably In the short term, it could be long term. And by the way, my heart is I’ve been in this crypto blockchain space now. Well, you could say since 2014, because I opened a Coinbase account in 2014. But the truth is, I didn’t do any trading. And the only reason I know I opened in 2014, was in 2018, I went to open a Coinbase account, they told me I’d already opened one. So, but you know, I’ve been in the space for four years, or there abouts. And I really, I’m really excited about the defy the, you know, the anonymity, the opportunities, but there is a lot of noise. And the investor protections that Lee had mentioned earlier, and that all all of today has been about, in a way, in regards to this summit, is first and foremost, what needs to get done, because it’s a matter of trust. It’s a matter of credibility. And once that trust and credibility bridge is, is is is built, then, you know, well, we’ll see the growth, but we’re building the plan. You know, we’re building the infrastructure where the foundations today, it’s a little early, but, you know, we’ll, you know, and those that are watching, they’re going to benefit from all this with quality issuances. And all those items that we mentioned before regarding transparency, faster settlement liquidity, you know, all the benefits that institutions have. But, you know, most other investors don’t.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  31:34

Is that the whole aspect of trust? I mean, that is the most critical thing, right? I mean, that’s the reason why, you know, we all talked about the word spoken at other summits, and, you know, lenders and pet and, you know, every time we we always talk about the digital infrastructure of trust, I mean, that’s, that’s what it really is. I mean, it’s, at the end of the day, you know, that the safety for both investors and issuers, and then making sure that the regulators are comfortable with how these things are performed. I think that really goes a long way towards adoption, but it’s just continuing education isn’t going to go to keep educating people about, you know, what are these, you know, elements of trust, that make this a viable system?

Pat LaVecchia  32:20

Absolutely, and then a tipping point. Right, a tipping point. Yes. Yeah. Once that tipping point happens, again, I think in 10 years, we’ll look back. And I know that all of us will be saying this, but others who are skeptics today will will look back and say, Why didn’t it happen sooner? Why did it take so long? Because that that’s reality that you know, tech is tech and this blockchain is just, if you can dive into it, and and all these benefits, you know, it’s it just for the capital market space, it just makes a whole heck of a lot of stuff.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  33:02

Lately had this little spear we’re sitting on the tip of the spear that’s an uncomfortable place to sit. Right. But you know what, that is a tipping point.

Oscar Jofre  33:09

Nice, nicely. Nice, nice. Time, you know, it’s an interesting comment you made pat that will look back 10 years. Well, I have the pleasure looking back 12 years. And you’re right. The naysayers 12 years ago was when the Jobs Act was first introduced, all it’s gonna be full of fraud for this for this for that. Knock on wood. It it. It showed the world that it wasn’t, in fact, because of the jobs. Period, people like David weild shared with me that was selling off Sarah Hanks traveling the world, because other countries embraced the regulations. They saw the fruit. And they saw Wow, this could be and yes, all over the world. We started seeing it so and now we’ve hit a major milestone and one of the regulation. It’s major because it lived up to its promise. And then, you know, if you’re a FINRA broker dealer, you know, I’m going to share this with you. FINRA broker dealers, when regulations you have come on, come on, I don’t want to be bothered with that. It’s it’s a million, it’s a million dollars i and now they’re seen statistics, data. So one of the platforms put it statistic on the top three platforms, these top three platforms did about, you know, 90% of all the capital races, and it had one shard had one that foreign 50 million, the other one that 375 million. And, you know, the comment to me was Oscar, is that a joke? It’s not like projection. No, I said that’s what they’ve done. But I mean, they did that over 20 years. No, they did that over three, four years. And all but they’re only getting one or 2%. No, they’re getting eight to 10%. They’ve made more money than some of the broker dealers who have been saying, Oh, it’s nothing it the world has changed. COVID-19 became the greatest thing that gift. And I know it sounds sad to say this and I apologize I’m not trying to be but it it created this environment where everybody’s engaging online, look how we’re doing events. Now we’re doing it fully online. And look what we’re doing. We started doing them via zoom, we recognize we needed to improve the engagement. And this is the new world, this is if we ever do get to a physical component of it, there will always be a portion of people that we still need to provide this information online. And it needs to be continued. And it’s just getting started. And that’s the beauty of it, it’s going to take all of us working together, do it compliantly with obviously the following the guidance of the regulators and making sure that we’re on side with that. Pat, Lee Grant, thank you so much for for a great session. Enlightening everyone. As I said, every one of our summits, we keep opening a new chapter, this chapter opened up in June of 2021, with the launch of the first ever end to end, you know, in the market, allowing everyday people to trade $5 I mean, and we’re gonna see more when Pat launches his, and there’ll be others and that’s okay, there, people need to understand there is, you know, just in the United States alone, there’s 32 million privately held companies, there’s room for everyone, what we all need to understand we need to work together. That’s, that’s the harmony that we try to do here. That’s why it’s so enjoyable. So what happens now, this Event Management System Platform provides a really unique way for us to close off, which everyone is going to be put into the lounge, Pat is going to be there we we made it thank you everyone for letting us know, we had too many tables, thank you. As I said it was gonna be bumpy, this first one. That was number one. And there’s only going to be three tables. So you can go in there and and start communicate, all you got to do is click the Join. And they will do they’ll be there you can turn on your cameras, you can speak to them have questions. And of course, their names are at KoreSummit. And of KoreSummit.io You can see their bios, their LinkedIn or email address, we want you to be able to communicate with them as as you need. And until the next course Summit, which is on December the second 2021 Dare to dream. It’s going to be an exciting one. The keynote speaker is going to be announced soon. This is going to kick off our year for 2022 For all these great companies that are here to democratize capital for everyone, until the next event. I want to thank everyone, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to get this great education to help you in your journey of capital raising using the new digital frontier as we say. So until next time, have a great time. Go to the lounge. Enjoy your time speaking to the speakers, and we will be seeing you very shortly. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.

Dr. Kiran Garimella  38:10

Thank you. Thank you